Occupy Movement:What’s the point?

By  | November 18, 2011 | 34 Comments | Filed under: Editorial

As the City of Toronto and others are going to court to evict the Occupy Movement from the public parks I don’t know why the protesters even want to continue.

What’s the point? What are their conditions to leave the parks? What is it exactly that they are trying to accomplish?

My “left wing” ways are well known here at The Citizen, and at first I applauded their efforts. In some ways it reminded me of the “Hippie Movement” of the 60’s.

I thought “Hey, these Occupy People have a point.” Awareness is the first step towards change.

They have brought awareness to the disparity in wealth in the world, they have proved their point. Without a clear mandate I’m not sure what else they have to prove.

As much as I admire Marx and Engels on paper, we have seen that communism doesn’t work in practice.

It’s time to go home.

 

34 Responses to Occupy Movement:What’s the point?

  1. les kadar November 18, 2011 at 7:57 am

    Scot I almost agree with you except for the fact that there is a point and there is a reason but it has gotten lost in the shuffle and winter, ( luckily for system ), but will come back.
    There is not just a disparity between the super rich, which have always, will always and must be there to keep the world going round, it’s about the fact that policians are not listening.
    Let’s take for example Cambridge. Sleepy, quiet and plundered.
    Over the past three years, our house taxes have risen 30 % while our business and most others, have dropped nearly 40%.
    People that have work, have part time jobs with little prospect of getting a full time job. Cambridge a once industrial town, is now littered with empty buildings ( in the Pinebush/Franklin area, within one block there is over 2 million square feet of empty industrial space ) while our city proposes to turn this community into a ” high tech ” centre. Please someone tell me how.
    Employees who are in their late 40-50s that operated machines, worked on assembly lines are not of the computer age let’s not even forget that most don’t want to be either.
    While all this goes on, our taxes are building a Theatre that will cost this community $600,000 per year for the next 10 years, just for the mortgage, with no pay back at all to the city tax coffers. So far, no rent figures have been provided if there will be any at all. The water pipes in front of my house have not been updated in so long the city records can’t tell me when they were installed.
    But on the bright side, our council is planning( in secret of course) to purchase the ” Old Post Office ” on water St that has sat empty for nearly a decade, for far in excess of it’s true realestate value and from what I have heard, plan to pump another 8 million dollars into it.
    Someone please tell me why ?
    Better yet, tell me where the money is coming from? The pot of gold I didn’t have, has long expired.
    When the Mayor used to ask me how things were going, I’d tell him. Getting worse and my taxes are continuously going up and I see no returns for the increase at all.
    His response was, oh you always complain. Fine, then don’t ask, and he doesn’t.

    So, you wonder why the occupy people ” occupy ” ????? When they get a real message going, the system is in trouble, and they will.
    When the residents of Cambridge wake up, they will too.
    Hopefully it’s not too late.
    Affordable housing wait list I hear is 10 years or so.

  2. Hags November 18, 2011 at 10:21 am

    Hate to bore you with a terse reply but the Occupy movement is simply the Lefts’ new thing. The Left are always looking for a cause so they can chant,bang drums, and act holier than thou.
    When this one fizzles out, they will find a new cause that will gain media headlines for a short while….it’s what they do.

  3. newsfan November 18, 2011 at 10:53 am

    The “flea party” aka “Occupy Private Property Anywhere” or best known as “Occupy Wall Sreet – OWS”, is the left’s answer to the Tea Party in the USA.

    I find it hilarious that the left called Tea Party patriots “angry mobs” and “rabid right-wing extremists.” even after witnessing rapes, murders and anarchy by the OWS. ABC said the Tea Partiers were a “mob.” CNN accused them of “rabble rousing.” Harry Reid called them “evil mongers.” Nancy Pelosi said they were “un-American.” CNN’s Anderson Cooper and every single host on MSNBC called the tea partiers a name that referred to an obscure gay sex act. The OWS actually do it, then defecate on the open sidewalks and roads!! What a message of “change”.

    The realty of course is that none of the slanderous accusations of the Tea Party by the left, were even remotely true. They were absolute lies. Unlike the Occupy movement, the conduct of Tea Party activists has been above reproach.

    Tea Party activists RENTED facilities with their OWN money, to convey their message. They obeyed the law. They even cleaned up after their demonstrations!!

    Occupiers are anarchists bent on destroying the social and moral fabric of our society, advocating its replacement with the usual Utopian, socialistic menu of misery. Simply and utterly stupid.

    No doubt similar to the 60’s and it is as stupid today as it was back then.

    Clint Eastwood said it – GROWLED IT REALLY – in Grand Torino, with a shotgun I believe, “GET OFF MY LAWN.”

  4. jan liggett November 18, 2011 at 12:07 pm

    Are you saying that the civil rights movement, women’s rights movement, the war in Viet Nam, protests against police killing innocent students at Ohio State, protests against lynchings in the south were stupid? That the assasinations of the Kennedys and King, the lynchings, the war, the Ku Klux Klan were okay? I remember the 60’s very well even though I wasn’t an adult at the time. I remember watching live on TV the hosing of the protestors in Birmingham, the police with snarling dogs attacking woemn and children as well as the men (my extended family lived there at the time, I was horrified. I remember thinking the world was falling apart. I don’t think people were stupid and I don’t think they are stupid today. What is happening is that a large number of people around the world are coming together to protest many different things. If you listen you will hear the message, but you have to want to hear it first. This transcends parties, because parties (all of them)are not about people. This was never about parties, that is just media speak to have something to talk about and you only perpetuate it. This is an anger that has been festering for a long time. I am just thankful that there hasn’t been more infiltration by people who get off on violence.

  5. les November 18, 2011 at 1:03 pm

    You know guys, it’s attitudes like yours that allows situations like I describe above where governments get away with financial murder because people rather sit home on their ass in front of a computer and complain but actually do nothing more but bitch and complain.
    The fact that people are actually willing to leave the couch, express their opinions is a bonus. The mess left behind and grave inconvenience to others is an unfortunate sideline that can be cleaned up and fixed easily.
    The reason for their concern is another matter all together.
    There is no Left or Right or Center in this type of issue I hate to tell you.

  6. Scot November 18, 2011 at 1:05 pm

    With both Jan and Catherine on here at the same time some of you lads better watch it! Newsy, if you thought Margaret gives you grief…
    and Allan and Facetious, anyone with the power to keep Ben Tucci quiet is a force to be reckoned with!

  7. newsfan November 18, 2011 at 1:44 pm

    Jan it was not through mob rule that laws were enacted which allowed positive change to take place. In fact it was just the opposite. We are an orderly people with democratic channels at our disposal to change our government.

    Civil disobedience and violence is not, was not and never will be a formula for national greatness. Why do we have representative government for in the first place, if unruly crowds of thugs are going to occupy private property and conduct an uncivil uprising? If and when they do, don’t be surprised if the police show up with rin-tin-tin.

    For nearly a century after the Civil War, congressional Republicans kept introducing bills that implemented the civil rights amendments — only to be blocked by segregationist Democrats. But then, attorney Thurgood Marshall came along and began winning cases before the Supreme Court, redeeming black Americans’ constitutional rights through the judiciary.

    As long as a Democrat occupied the oval office, civil rights came to a screeching halt.

    Canadians are not going to sit idly by and watch hooligans trample with glee, our country’s constitution, while violating the rule of law, JUST so they can have their own way. They protest because they enjoy creating chaos. Many of them don’t even know why they are protesting. Just “many different things” you say?

    The violence will come. The left are determined that it will.

    Much, much more could be said in respect to your delusional revision of history Jan, but I’ll leave that for another day.

  8. newsfan November 18, 2011 at 1:46 pm

    Bring it on.

  9. Hags November 18, 2011 at 2:04 pm

    Les, sorry…the Occupy movement is a Left issue. The right protests at the ballot box…the left protests in the streets.
    Jan, I heard one occupier telling the press that the ‘movement’ was right up there with Rosa Parks refusing to cede her bus seat. What a perverse joke!
    I lived through the sixties myself and was deeeply touched by Dr. King and Rev Abernathy in particular…but these current day dolts? Come on, as I’ve said before, the current protests takes away from real inequality in Africa and Asia. In those places, people are drowning while we watch lazy people act up for the right to own a motor boat because they’re sick of rowing.
    Last, the fastest way to clear out the occupiers is with the offer of a job….then you’ll see a quick bug-out.

  10. Jan Liggett November 18, 2011 at 2:38 pm

    The people in Halifax actually did clean up their mess. They even scrubbed with soap and water. I am sure there are people in all the cities that have cleaned up their personal mess. It’s the ones who are participating who normally throw garbage out their windows and on the street that won’t be cleaning up their mess.

  11. newsfan November 18, 2011 at 3:14 pm

    Well Jan, I guess given the cleanliness of Halifax certainly offsets the hammer attack in Maine today or the theft of furnishings from a private home in Florida to set up camp and the numerous sexual and physical assaults most everywhere else.

    Oh and did I mention the free clincis for the protestors for STD’s contracted due to the liberal exchanges of body fluids throughout the occupation, fleas, lice, garbage?

    How about the rampant anti-semitism and demands for the destruction of Israel?

    Why is George Soros so heavily invested in this anarchy?

  12. Jan Liggett November 18, 2011 at 3:37 pm

    I will ignore the name calling because I have never been tested for mental illness, so I can’t argue that point. Question though, what part of history do you believe I have rewritten? I will give you that laws are not enacted through mob rule. I am not writing of mob rule, but of activists who use peaceful civil disobedience to affect change. Civil disobedience includes people who chain themselves to trees, block traffic by walking in groups across crosswalks,etc. Those are people who follow their conscience rather than have fear for their personal safety. Laws are written, the majority of time, because people see a need for change to what exists. Sometimes they are written because the times they are a changin’. Take for example the new federal changes to laws on wearing masks at times of protests.
    “We are an orderly people with democratic channels at our disposal to change our government”. Since when have we always been a country of orderly people?
    Did you forget the 1837 Rebellion, the Patriot’s War and the Metis Rebellion? Those were all because political channels didn’t work. All changes are not necessarily positive ones especially when the government is not representing the people.

    I am running late. Have to continue this later.

  13. newsfan November 18, 2011 at 3:57 pm

    Name calling?

    Civil disobedience?? Just like Bill Ayers is advocating in the US right now? The guy who was partially responsible for bombing the Pentagon and murdering a police officer? Those who use “civil disobedience” have already abandoned our societal means of dealing each other and cross over to violence at some stage.

    Why not try VOTING??!! That’s a novel idea. And if the majority of the population disgrees with your choice, work harder in the next election to move your position forward utilizing the same tools that every other party has at their disposal.

    Attend council meetings as a delegation; writing letters to various levels of government; engaing your local MP and MPP; writing articles; etc. There are numerous civil ways to convey your position other than the “in your face” method being utiliizied by OWS.

  14. Hags November 18, 2011 at 4:27 pm

    I can’t think of one protest in Canada that could in any way be construed as right wing. Anyone out there care to correct me?….so when we are ‘not listening to the people’, to me it means not listening to left wing people…young social activists and entitled old unionists. Why should they drive the car…we never gave them the keys did we?

  15. Allan Dettweiler November 19, 2011 at 11:00 am

    Les, I gotta figure out how your brain works.
    You make so much sense at times I wish you were in government.

    Jan, I’ve never been tested either – let’s just say something is wired differently in my attic.

  16. Hags November 19, 2011 at 11:23 am

    I think the press and many contributors at the Citizen are reading the OWS movement all wrong. In relative terms, they are the priviledged not the outcasts.
    They have a great ‘higher educational system’ that is heavily subsidized, they have one of the best health care services on the planet, they have full bellies and decent clothing, they are owners of high tech communication devices that many can only dream of owning, many of them have parents who pay for and encourage their excess. They are by world standards wealthy and have equal opportunity to get more if they want more.
    As I’ve stated ad-nauseum, the protesters are an unnecessary distraction to real inequality on our planet.
    How can anyone respect a ‘press’ that gives these priviledged children a voice?
    Why do we fail to see how good we have it? It’s no accident that the whole world wants to immigrate to western democracies….we’ve got it good…inspite of what OWS and their cheer-leaders tell us.

  17. Allan Dettweiler November 19, 2011 at 12:04 pm

    Yes Hags, many of them are doing OK.
    Unless they had to pay off their “share” of the debts various governments have spent on their behalf.
    I’d be in the hole if I had to pay off my share.

  18. marc November 19, 2011 at 2:35 pm

    Holy shill batman! Drink the kool-aid much? You call yourself a lefty? Okay Obama, whatever you say. Following right along with the mainstream media mantra, your drone like attack on the protesters is shameful. What’s next from your lefty point of view…..that you are against war, but Iran has WMD’s so we better preemptively stop them?

    I’m not going to tell you if you should support the occupiers or not as that’s your choice, and my experience is that you can’t change anyone’s opinion by shoving your views down their throat. People have to come to their own conclusions. Most people are just living their lives, have kids etc and really don’t have enough time to spend on what’s going on in the world, so they read newspapers and watch network tv for their information. Start reading other points of view on topics, and combined with the mainstream stuff your watching, come to your own conclusions.

    If you start to really pay attention, you will see behind the veil and read between the lines, and I think come to very different viewpoints than what you thought previously. Does what you hearing or reading pass the smell test?

    What you wrote stank of the one-sided mainstream crap that is pounded into the airwaves day in day out. Put the coca-cola brand kool-aid cup down, read something else other than the Sun, watch something else other than CNN, and pay attention. Then come back and tell me what you think. I may not agree but I will certainly have more respect for the substance of your article, rather than this rehashed overdone media driven drivel.

    The news lately is that the government has been more than patient with the protestors, but enough is enough, and these people need to go home, much what like you said btw. Like they gave these people permission, but now the stern parent is saying enough is enough, and people like you are eating it up. Kinda misses the point of protests, no?

    If those militia style cops who are pepper spraying 84 yr old women and beating the crap out of innocent unarmed peaceful protesters doesn’t make you gut wrenching pissed off, and question what the f**k is going on,then there isn’t much anyone else can say that will change your mind, which is fair enough. Just don’t insult the rest of of us by calling yourself a lefty.

    Flame away.

    Lemmings R Us

  19. marc November 19, 2011 at 4:50 pm

    End Rant.

  20. Hags November 20, 2011 at 1:37 pm

    Marc, can’t figure if your post is the the absolute smartest or the absolute dumbest, most facile thing I’ve read at the Citizen…but I’m
    tending toward the latter in a big, big, way. xoxo Hags

  21. marc November 20, 2011 at 2:08 pm

    Hags, I do have a tendency to be both clever, and a complete moron, often at the same time, so your confusion is understandable. In retrospect, my response was about 3 paragraphs too long and a little too personally directed, sorry bout that Scot.

    I am of the belief that we are all being led over the cliff by that 1%, while clearly you don’t. Marginalizing those protesters for what they stand for and standing in unison with those that rule over us confounds me. Do you really believe they have your best interest in mind? I don’t.

    So,out of curiosity, were you were okay with the trillion dollar bailouts with no strings attached to those fkrs on wall street who ripped everyone off? Were you okay with killing untold amounts of innocent people in far off lands? What about those WMD’s? Were you okay with the richest of the rich getting tax breaks while the rest of us are told we have to pay the price to get out of debt, all the while losing our jobs and houses? Are you okay with innocent peaceful protestors being beaten by the cops? Are you okay with the environment being treated like a toilet? Are you okay with corporations and lobbyists monopolizing the political spectrum?

    Greed has run amok and some people have had enough. Fascism is at our doorstep and some people have a problem with that, believe it or not.

    To answer Scot’s first question….that is the point.

  22. Hags November 20, 2011 at 3:21 pm

    Marc, if I were an American citizen, I’d have much symapathy for the protesters…even though they are hypocritical in the extreme.
    In Canada however, our money management by banks has been excellent…by our governments, not so great however.
    In my world, a better reason to protest whould be to bring an element of what we have (prosperity), to the third world.
    The money manipulators in the states should be in jail….we could both agree on that.
    You lost your house and job over the ’08 meltdown?
    And to answer your question, I’d have let the market take care of GM, Chrysler and a few crooked banks….i.e. no bailouts.
    Last, the people who are protesting…by world standards..are rich and priviledged…ironic or what!

  23. nevil November 21, 2011 at 5:12 pm

    Excellent points Marc, though Newsfan is obviously right wing (and with his fixation on what’s happening in the U.S. sounds American). And Hags talks like he is right wing as well. The only reason Canada is in better shape is not because of the banks doing money management, but because legislation was put in years ago to protect the citizens against the banks (not by the present government either). People should check their facts about who the protestors are. Interviews taken by many different organizations including media outlets of all persuasion show them to be inclusive of Republicans, Democrats,Tea Party, anarchists & Libertarians, with the vast majority being independents. As for religious groups, many are also represented. In one study only 13% are unemployed, 50% are employed full time with 1/3 over 35 years of age. 13% earn over $75,000.
    The following is a quote:

    “One of the mindless attacks on Occupy protesters is that they are lazy and should “go get a job”.

    In fact, most Occupy protesters have jobs.

    For example, Scott Olsen – the Marine veteran peacefully protesting in Oakland who was shot in the head with a projectile by riot police – had a very good day job, but was so dedicated that he went to the protests after work:

    Scott Olsen, 24, joined the protests as he worked his day job as a network engineer and left his apartment each night to sleep alongside protesters in San Francisco and Oakland, Calif., Keith Shannon said.
    ***

    Olsen, who is originally from Wisconsin, served two tours of duty in Iraq, makes a good living at a San Francisco software company and had a hillside apartment that overlooks San Francisco Bay.

    ***

    Each night, he would go out to the tent camps that have sprung up over the past month in cities as the movement spread to protest economic inequality and what they see as corporate greed.

    ***

    People at OPSWAT, the company where Olsen works, were devastated after learning of his injuries. They described him as a humble, quiet guy who worked hard over long hours.

    “He’s been a big piece of what we do here and our growth strategy, so obviously it’s pretty devastating for us that he’s in the shape he’s in,” said Jeff Garon, the company’s director of marketing.

    Olsen was awarded seven medals while serving in the U.S. Marine Corps, which he left as a lance corporal in November 2009 after serving for four years.

    He went on two tours in Iraq, one in 2006-2007 and another in 2008, where he worked as a data network specialist. He was awarded seven medals, including the Navy-Marine Corps Achievement Medal, according to the Marine Corps.”

    End quote.

    Many of us here in Canada DID lose our jobs and homes in the meltdown. Some of us at or in retirement have lost our retirement savings as well. The car companies didn’t pay their suppliers with the bailout money and most of those had to close up shop including some here in Cambridge. We can only help other countries if we are healthy ourselves.

  24. Hags November 21, 2011 at 7:18 pm

    Nevil, how perceptive of you to have identified Newsie and I as being on the ‘right’…as if it may be a catchy disease. I should mention however that I’ve been called a bleeding heart on this site…which I quite like.
    Anyway, the OWS lot may have half-assed identified a problem but what sane person would look to the left for an economic solution?
    You will have fun on this site Nevil, being a leftie…which I’m quite comfortable with…and you will have lots of sympathetic ears to support your stances.
    Last, like many in Canada, I’ve lost about a third of my wealth to the market forces….but I will still make it my personal business to help those in real need ,rather than those who simply want more ‘entitlements’and are tired of rowing….while others drown. Have fun Nevil.

  25. newsfan November 21, 2011 at 7:49 pm

    So Nevil, I have a ‘…fixation on what’s happening in the U.S…’? Really? Isn’t the ‘occupy’ movement an international effort? Are you not Comrades with protestors of the same cause globally, including the USA?

    More later…

  26. Hags November 22, 2011 at 9:59 am

    A sign from occupy toronto…’solidarity against austerity’.
    I think the protesters fit in well with the southern europeans…whose ditsy socialist policies have them on the precipice of bankruptcy.
    Last, read three different posts from toronto, providence ri and london simply asking ‘where are the occupiers?’…cause apparently they don’t sleep in their tents. Most sites are almost vacated at night.
    I guess lightfoot’s daughter goes back to opulent rosehill for a proper eight hours of shut-eye, a hot meal and a cup of steaming cocoa.
    Anyway, I promise that I will show more respect to the occupiers if they occupy the premises of Michael Moores’s ritzy 2.5 mil cottage or any one of Al Gore’s decadently large homes….what are the chances of that I wonder?
    …well, hell could freeze over I suppose.

  27. Steven Woods November 22, 2011 at 11:02 am

    The occupy movement has been a farce, soon t-shirts will be sold and other paraphernalia will be created and Bay street and Wall street will make money off of this waste of people’s time. I ask, what was accomplished here? Absolutely nothing but a waste of tax payers money keeping an eye on them, and Hag’s Micheal Moore is one of the biggest hypocrites that Hollywood has ever produced. Good Riddance to all the occupiers now go find a job and do something productive with your lives.

  28. Hags November 22, 2011 at 3:03 pm

    Steven, John Moore today on CFRB agrees with you. While doing a walkabout in St. James Park…he witnessed a guy sporting a dress arguing tactics with a guy dressed up as Dumbledor from Harry Potter….and they expect to be taken seriously.

  29. newsfan November 22, 2011 at 3:07 pm

    Ok Nevil and Marc, I have a little bit more time and feel a little less angry toward your posts today.

    But, you both make me sick. Why do you leftists always seem to use injured troops and medical victims for political gain? Every campaign of the left has not only a soldier story, but an “injured” soldier or victim story. Remember Biden focusing on paraplegic Chuck Graham while sitting is his wheelchair – “Uh, Uh, Chuck Graham, state senator is here. Stand up, Chuck. Let ’em see you. Oh. God love you. What am I talking about? I tell you what, you’re making everybody else stand up, though, pal.” (rimshot)

    Let’s get something straight, the reality is Nevil and Marc, those on the left do not give a rats behind about our military. The left’s misguided belief that olive branches, outstretched hands and soft kisses blown in the direction of enemies that threaten the existence of our planet, is delusional at best and is responsible for allowing “hot spots” in the world to get out of control while they dithered. The left would demand we disarm to display ourselves as a peaceful, non-threatening country. IT NEVER HAS AND NEVER WILL WORK. I truly believe that you are going to find that out pretty soon.

    Why are you not parking your asses in front of the Iranian and Syrian consulates? These two countries are not only responsible for conducting and sponsoring the lion’s share of terror internationally, but also force a huge bulk of the free world’s GDP, to be spent in preparation for the wars that they threaten. And Marc, remember when the US Intelligence Estimate stated that Iran had given up on Atomic weapons years ago? Surprise!! They lied!! – and by the way, WMD’s were found in Iraq. They will probably see the Israeli Air Force in 3D pretty darn soon.

    Why not protest OPEC? They really ARE screwing the world financially. Or China who has manipulated their currency to the detriment of the rest of the world. These are a few of the significant culprits responsible for poverty and the poor you say you want to help. In fact they are the entities that are stripping the western world of wealth.

    Our political, financial, medical and social systems, etc. may not be perfect, but they are sought after by the rest of the world, which is in an enormous amount of pain after going down the very road that the Occupy movement supports.

  30. les November 22, 2011 at 4:11 pm

    I have a second here while not trying to drum up more work to pay the bills and exorbitant ever increasing property taxes nobody seems to show concern for.
    I wish the Right would stop pounding out the Left as if they were some form of illness that needs to be treated.
    In truth there is no left or right, there is only reality.
    The reality is more than obvious if one only takes a split second to access it.
    All the rest of crap. The reality is, that we all want the same thing, just have differing opinions on how to get there. By labeling one a left versus a right, is neither helpful nor allows for progress. Grow up. Debate the issues and stop being such a bloody narrow minded conservative. There are other points of view in the world that have merit. If there weren’t and no validity, we’d all be living under Saddam and luving it. Sure, protest OPEC and China. Why not propose an even more viable protest platform, like, wanting sunlight at night. It’s has about the same potential of success and you know it. When we all stop buying Chinese made products from American/Canadian suppliers of those products, it will change. Not until. As for OPEC, who is OPEC really ? The USA in another styled white robe? Who protects OPEC interests more than their own people’s at home?
    There is more natural gas discovered and capped off in the USA than anywhere in the world but not being used. Why? Tons of other countries run on natural gas while the US still burns gasoline, not even diesel. Why? Are they really concerned about imports from abroad?

  31. Hags November 22, 2011 at 7:53 pm

    Right, pounding the Left? Les, I can’t think of many righties who bother to comment on the Citizen. And sorry if I don’t kowtow to a movement (OWS)that is shown to be fickle,hypocritical and mainly irrelevant…just my opinion and willing to debate it.
    I also think that some have a problem with Newsie because he fights like the Left does….tough and in your face. Both Marc and Nevil went for the juglar in a condescending manner and Newsie pushed back…we are free to argue aren’t we?
    Newsie…Syria and Iran are enemies of the USA…meaning they are immune from Leftist criticism….sad but true.

  32. les November 24, 2011 at 6:02 pm

    totally, and to quote a famous commentor on this channel,,,ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

  33. Hags November 24, 2011 at 9:33 pm

    Come on Les, you and Jan had fun with this thread …you were not going zzzzzzzz…you were going !!!!!

  34. les November 25, 2011 at 8:14 am

    OK, I concede, I just had to use your line somewhere.

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